Howdy! I’m back. Let’s get back to work, shall we?
Open Source Spirituality is a collaboration of ideas that educates “seekers” by giving them a process for seeking truth. It is a way of looking at the world with a critical eye, but the process is only as strong as the contributions made by other seekers. People should know how to question long-held beliefs because only then will those beliefs be truly worth believing. The most precious metals in the world are made into very beautiful things but only after they are forged in hot fire.
Let the hot fire of ideas govern your beliefs.
Before we begin, understand one thing. I’m not trying to convince you, in this post at least, that “god” doesn’t exist. You can figure that out for yourself. This is merely a process you can use to apply before you accept something as a belief.
Off we go:
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
“God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power”
Assuming we are reading or hearing this passage for the very first time we can use our previously defined process to put to the test whether or not it should become a belief.
First off, we recognize that everything should be questioned before we deem something worthy to become a belief. Its not good enough to accept as truth something someone says or has written. We must recognize that we are smart people and if common sense is a gift from “god,” like compassion or intelligence, then we must apply common sense where it is warranted. And because beliefs define us to the core of our being, there should be an element of common sense applied.
Secondly, to do that, the purported belief should make sense to you. If you derive from the passage in Thessalonians that God will reward his followers and punish the non-followers, and you decide to hold that as a belief, it should be because it makes sense to you at some level.
Thirdly, does this belief reflect the best qualities humanity has to offer? How do you deal with people who feel differently than you? Do you tolerate those who feel differently? Is it right or just to punish those who feel differently than you? Shouldn’t the ultimate authority we refer to as “god” reflect the best qualities in us? Aren’t they gifts from “god” as well?
Fourthly, if this purported belief doesn’t reflect how you think a challenge should be met, you should reject it as a belief. Ask yourself what kind of person behaves in such a fashion as to punishing those who feel differently: Stalin, Saddam Hussein, Hitler? Is that reflective of your image of “god?” Does this sound “just” to you?
Lastly, we understand that though we are wise, we don’t know everything. Is there anything else we can derive from this lesson? is there something we missed in the initial summation? The beauty of seeking is that you can continue to apply this process ad infinitum until you have the truth you seek.
Thoughts?
July 8th, 2008 at 10:16 am
Based on the excerpt I would see a “Just” God as a tyrannical vengeful, uncompromising son of a bitch. While using an example like this the only beliefs I can personally come up with is this was written by MAN. Not a “god”. I am tolerant of other beliefs but the comparison of my tolerance vs. a God is apples and oranges to me since my GOD (not yours) is one of love and understanding and is not Bible Based but based on my internal rationalization of which is also based on my experiences. I say “based” a lot. I’d write more but my tummy is grumbling.
July 8th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
If you have a way to streamline or improve the process . . . I’d love to hear your feedback, wook.
July 8th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
I have spent a great deal of my life as a seeker. Even in being so, from what I have grasped from your post, it has not led my belief pattern in the same direction as yours.
Like you, I have no qualms with you believing what you do while I carry my own beliefs. I appreciate where you are coming from. I do believe in God and I would like to comment in addition to your ideas that my main problem with religion is the way God is made to be a character, or man, as is the counter part of God, the character “Devil” instead of being understood and respected as being both.
The point of: “shouldn’t God represent man at our best?” is only really relevant in the instance of that “character God” representing all that is “good” (according to the word of man) rather than representing in fact ALL that is.
In terms of God being “all that is” there is plenty of room to include that which we (the word of man) deem bad as well.
Why in fact would God not BE (rather than merely represent) ALL things that man is? That plant is and water is? And if that, which I believe, is the truth of God why would it cause a problem for it to be so?
Why wouldn’t all things represent God, if all things were made by and as a representation of God perhaps as a vehicle OF God to experience god self?
I also, wonder these things.
July 8th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Well, as I understand it, several generations of Jews were held captive in modern-day Iran and Iraq, if memory serves me correctly, so a lot of New Testament teachings hold their origins with the ancient religions of those regions. That’s why, if it happened with Zoroaster first and Jesus second, I flat out reject it.
I’m not one of those people that thinks the Bible, as it is canonized, is a complete and divine work. The Holy Bible as taught in church was compiled by a group with an agenda. You’ve got letters Paul wrote holding the same “divine” weight as the prophecy given to Isaiah from God, etc. Some writings were put in, some were left out. The first book written about Jesus, as I understand, was penned 50 or so years after his death, but the Bible as we know it came hundreds of years later.
It’s not possible to have a productive conversation with a Christian who believes that the Bible was put together by God Himself, and every word divine, as opposed to the reality: The Bible was canonized by the Roman church about 400 years after the death of Christ.
Likewise, you can’t have a productive conversation about Christianity with an athiest who doesn’t believe that the God who’s been keeping the Jews in the news for 5000+ years exists, because they’re using the same book as the Fundies to make it all seem ridiculous.
I wonder where I was going with that….
July 9th, 2008 at 6:40 am
Oh, and the passage you reference from Thessalonians was one of those letters from Paul, who, no doubt, was a sturdy believer. But it was just a letter he wrote, filled with his own opinion and conjecture. Fundies will tell you that because it’s in the Holy Bible it must be perfect, but look at the relationship between Peter and Paul. They had a terrible falling out over religious doctrine, and obviously did not agree.
Therefore, only one of them could be right. That means the other one was wrong. How can one say, then, that every word in the Bible is perfect and “divinely inspired”? That’s the problem. Christians have no answer to this question.
Imagine how many letters the Rev. Billy Graham wrote over his lifetime. Will future generations compile his letters and turn them into a “divine” holy book? And if every person who had a vision of Jesus and subsequently devoted their lives to following the Lord, should we regard their every utterance as being divinely inspired?
I’ve read you’re not a believer, and can understand why based on Bible verses like the one you mentioned above.
So I’m going to impart this one last piece of advice for believers and the doubting: Read the Proverbs (in a modern translation!). King Solomon was a wise one, The proverbs are very funny, and an interesting read (esp. towards the middle of the book, when the actual “proverbs” kick in). Besides all the funny quotes, one will learn that in the Bible, “Wisdom” is a female entity, a person from God’s realm. Never, ever have I been able to get a Christian to admit to this in spite of the fact that it’s written right there. Just like they say that Jesus will come into your life if you seek him, Wisdom will come into your life if you actively seek her. These funny fundies who want to take every word of the Bible literally will all of a sudden cry, “That’s just figurative speaking!” Go figure. The one part of the Bible that unlocks all the rest of it is ignored as “not being literal”.
Sorry for the rambling, When questioning the Bible, skip the letters Paul wrote and check out those Proverbs.
July 9th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
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July 9th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
I think all religion is wrong, to a point, and lacking. Religion is wrong because no one is right. Every religion claims this and in doing so alienates itself and demonizes others. It’s lacking because we look up to the “heavens” for answers that are usually right in front of us. We never seem to have faith in ourselves. I highly doubt that if a God put us here that He/She wouldn’t want us seeking Heaven or whatever. If we are spirits first and we revert back to spirits when we die, why then would we be seeking a spiritual journey on earth? Wouldn’t we be spirits on a human journey? I do think there might have been a divine Creator but He/She is only observing, being neither good nor evil in our sense of the definition. That all people, good and bad, return to the Creator to share our experience on earth with the Creator and others. If we seek anything in our fleeting lives it should be love and compassion. Religion gives us neither, it tries but it ends up creating an illusion. When you stop seeking the divine you’ll find the divine. Isn’t it enough to be alive with friends and family and to see the beauty that is the earth and her creatures. The divine is all around us. All you have to do is look straight ahead.
July 24th, 2008 at 8:17 am
I think it’s dangerous (and probably a logical fallacy) to assign to an entire group (”all religions”) the value of a subset of that group.
In my own experience with Christianity, I’ve interacted with people who had a misunderstanding (at least from my point of view) about the core teachings. I don’t deny that such people exist, even in large numbers.
But I’ve also had some great experience with people who (again in my opinion) have a keener insight into what Christianity (and most spiritual faiths) is trying to get across (pun intended) — i.e., that it’s not about being “right” but about being “better.”
It’s quite common on the Internet to find an entire religion/philosophy (Christian, Muslim and others) distilled down to a few paragraphs, or even a couple of sentences. And, while it can be amusing, in my opinion doing this completely misses the point.
July 24th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Emaw,
I’m glad you’ve found something that works for you. What I’m proposing is for those who need or want a process of seeking truth.
With regard to Christianity, it breaks down like this for me . . . Is the Bible the divinely inspired word of God? Is God Infallable? I can’t add much more to what Leigh Ann wrote, but if the answer to both those questions are yes, then its nigh impossible to call oneself Christian and dispute whatever is written. The least interesting part in the Bible to me is the story of the resurrection. But Christianity placed that as front and center of the faith. By not placing Jesus’ teachings at the forefront, Christianity became a religion that sought to control and not inspire. The teachings may or may not be important but dispute Jesus as the Son of God or that he died and rose again? All for you? Essentially you are born in debt to God and you must pay with your life while here on earth.
And misunderstanding? Who holds the valid understanding of what is to be understood? from my way of understanding, you can pick and choose what is holy and good in the Bible but to do that you must also arrive that some of what is found in the Bible doesn’t apply to a healthy and happy life. And if that is the case . . . The Bible ceases to be the divinely inspired word of God and instead . . . becomes just another self help book . . . with no clear-cut plan for exactly what that self-help should be.